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 Post subject: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:28 pm 
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I have seen a few threads here that within the thread there is a suggestion that Roxy are Bryan Ferry and without Bryan Ferry there would be no Roxy Music and that Phil, Andy, Paul, Eno etc were just members of one of Bryan's bands.

I concur to a point but I would strongly suggest that there would also be no Roxy Music without the other guys and that Roxy Music were one of Phil's bands, one of Andy's bands, one of Pauls bands etc. too.

If you look over the years at Bryan Ferry's 'bands' you can see there have been several different sets and styles of musicians that Bryan has worked with in what could be suggested as his bands.

Roxy Music 3 different periods
(Albums 1 & 2 with Eno, albums 3,4&5 and the last 3 albums.)
These 3 periods have their own distinctive styles.

Solo band for 1st 3 solo albums

In Your Mind album and tour

Boys And Girls/Bete Noire album and tour.

Taxi/Mamouna album ad tour though I would say they are not too different to the Boys And Girls/Bete Noire bands

As Time Goes By/The Jazz Age/Bitter Sweet tour and album.

Olympia/Avonmore tour and album

To use for example the As Time Goes By album and tour band, there is no way that album and tour would have sounded the way it did with the Roxy guys and the same for the rest of Bryan's bands. No Roxy album would have sounded the same of it were these jazz cats that Bryan had been working on with every album since 1972.

The point I am making is that yes Bryan does have a big part in the sound of every album in the way he writes/produces the music but the albums sound the way they do due to the musicians on each and every album especially the Roxy albums.

The Roxy albums sound the way they do because they have a talented front man who writes and co-writes great songs and has a very distinctive voice and stage presence, no one is denying that. However they also sound that way do because they have a very distinctive set of core members who bring their own unique and distinctive musicianship to the band with their individual approach to how they write and perform their instruments.

The attraction to the As Time Goes By era is also because of that distinctive voice and presence but also because of the musicians who are at the top of that particular game with a pianist/arranger/band leader that excels in this particular genre.

I could say the same for every era/band that Bryan has worked with. Bryan is definitely a big part of what he brings to the table with all these genres that he has worked with and the band members that have accompanied him but he definitely is not the sole reason for the sound of each band.

Would you say the album/tour for In Your Mind would have sounded the same if it were David Williams/Nile Rogers/Steve Ferrone/Marcus Miller and vice versa......I think not....and I am sure we can say the same if we pair any of Bryan's 2 bands (including Roxy)

The one person I think would agree with this is Mr Ferry himself. If you watch him on stage he always shares the stage and gives every member a focal point at some time in the show of which he acknowledges on stage. If you watch him on a TV show even if it's a mimed performance like the Wogan show etc he will always take a bow and then raise his arm to the band to say 'these guys are part of it all too you know'

if you listen to interviews of Bryan while on tour he will always refer to the show and the band as 'we'

Bryan is always gracious about the professionals that he works with including the sound guys and background team and never diminishes the importance in their role in the individual areas/eras that they have worked with him.

The Roxy Music albums sound the way they do because of Bryan, Andy, Phil, Paul, Eddie, Eno the same way As Time Goes By sounds the way it does due to all those guys involved ........try imagining it the other way round and you should get my point.

I agree that Bryan Ferry doesn't need Roxy Music to have a career and income and the same can be said for the other guys as I am sure producing David Gilmour/Pink Floyd and being sampled by Jay Z/Kanye West would be a nice little earner.

These guys have all made some great music away from the band situation but there is no doubt in my mind that there was a special chemistry when these guys got together. I would also say the As Time Goes By band had a great sound to them as well as the Bete Noire Tour and other bands of Bryan's

Somewhere after the first song or two at a Roxy Music show Bryan says "THIS is Roxy Music" or "WE are Roxy Music" and he doesn't mean it at that point as a corporate brand, I am not going to argue with him on that.

J.O'B.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 7:23 pm
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Cher J.O’B,

See below - W2 encountered a small technical problem.

Salutations,

Windswept.


Last edited by Windswept2 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:31 pm 
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Windswept2 wrote:
Cher J.O’B,

You enthusiastically endorsed the point that Windswept has made from the get go but then go on to conclude there would have been no Roxy Music without the other guys.

Windswept politely but violently disagrees furthermore, you are factually incorrect.

Nobody is trying to downplay the importance of any musician in any of Mr. Ferry’s bands. Least of all Mr.Ferry lui-meme.

We can all dance on the head of a pin regarding this subject but the fact of the matter is, they were all Bryan Ferry’s bands.

Casual visitors to this section of this hallowed cyber hall could be forgiven for thinking that ‘Roxy’ was conceived by Manzo, TGBT, Eno and Andy over a cup of coffee after which they decided to go out and recruit themselves a vocalist/song writer and a bass player !

There seems almost to be a desire to deprive BF and even the late Graham Simpson of their own histories.

Forget it guys and gals. Roxy was Ferry’s creation from the beginning and sans Bryan there would have been no Roxy.

Did the other musicians play a pivotal role ? Absolutely.

Would the band have gone ahead without one or more of them ? Absolutely, it did - Simpson was only on one album ,Eno on two and TGPT on six.

Was there a special chemistry between the original members ? Absolutely.

Has there been a special chemistry in Ferry’s other bands ?
Absolutely.

Have they been as good ? It depends what you like. For Windswept :
Absolutely.

Furthermore , if Roxy isn’t Ferry and Ferry isn’t Roxy, presumably given their apparent desire to reform, the other members would have gone out and got themselves another singer/songwriter. They haven’t because they know it would never work. It would be a tribute act. They wouldn’t be able to fill a church hall. What’s more, they are all too good a musicians to even think about that. They’ve had their own post Roxy careers.

Finally somebody said that it is disrespectful to the other musicians to say that “Roxy is Ferry and Ferry is Roxy”. Windswept thinks it is disrespectful not to acknowledge it !

Salutations et bon sante a tous,

W2


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:56 pm 
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I think it fair to say that that the sum is greater than the parts, have the Beatles solo ever matched the Beatles as a band the creative tension between Lennon and McCartney and for that matter Jagger and Richards is what gives the band its dynamic, it could be argued that Lennon needed McCartney pushing him and vice versa. Ferry himself has said that the other band members annoyed him into getting things finished and I'm sure again the reverse is true. If the musicians Ferry uses now are that good maybe he should let them be more interpretive instead of playing note perfect singles edits of Roxy songs at shows. Spedding does to an extent but I'm sure Jorja and whichever other guitarists could be allowed a little latitude in arrangements.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:32 am
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Location: Suffolk
That is an excellent summary of Bryan’s career representing the different evolving chapters of his output, John.
Fans will find interest in different phases depending on taste, but thankfully we are witnessing an artist that does change and grow throughout his career.
There are many artists (that I won’t name here - you know who they are) that hit on a formula and either by lack of ideas or pressure from management continue ploughing the same furrow. It may bring in the money but where is the artistic expression?

I still maintain, however, that Roxy and Ferry are two separate acts, albeit one that that was very clearly formed and moulded by the thoughts of one man. As Roxy founder members fell away their influence over the mix meant Bryan’s input became easier to see.

Surely I’m not the only one who grinds teeth when less enlightened party goers call Love is the Drug & Jealous Guy a Ferry song and likewise Slave To Love & Let’s Stick Together a Roxy tune!

The early Roxy albums were a special mix of ingredients and no one in the world of rock had a recipe like it at the time. To prolong the analogy to desperate lengths we all know who was head chef, but there was a lot happening in that particular kitchen.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:37 pm 
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I think there's a danger of violent disagreement losing sight of just how much common ground there is here! ;)

I can't recall any post which suggested that Roxy was the idea or concept of anyone other than BF. However, he himself has stated that the band could not have happened without Graham Simpson; this presumably because BF was still learning the musical ropes, so to speak, and required Graham to notate the music that BF sang and played.

For that reason alone I think a strong case could be made for Graham, rather than Colin Good or anyone else, being BF's most essential musical partner.

"...presumably given their apparent desire to reform, the other members would have gone out and got themselves another singer/songwriter."

None of us knows how accurate the rumour mill is, but wasn't there a suggestion that Andy and/or Phil suggested precisely that in the late 70s in order to end Roxy's first hiatus (i.e. between Siren and Manifesto)?

The relative commercial failure of TBSB (now rightly viewed as one of BF's masterworks) may well have been a reason for Roxy's reformation then, but I doubt that there was ever any serious intention (for any number of reasons) of trying to continue without BF.

In more recent times there is believed to be a legal agreement between BF, AM & PM which requires all of them to be involved if the Roxy name is to be used. While this doesn't alter the fact that Roxy was BF's concept or brainchild, it does suggest that no one individual can rightfully claim to be Roxy.

P.S. My post crossed in the ether with Miniluv's and I'm loving his final point!

"...we all know who was head chef, but there was a lot happening in that particular kitchen."


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:27 pm 
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wrighta wrote:
If the musicians Ferry uses now are that good maybe he should let them be more interpretive instead of playing note perfect singles edits of Roxy songs at shows. Spedding does to an extent but I'm sure Jorja and whichever other guitarists could be allowed a little latitude in arrangements.

And that is one of the major differences between Roxy Music and Bryan Ferry. BF uses session musicians. They are paid to do a job as instructed. They may not even like the music that they are playing. Over the years both Chris Spedding and Herbie flowers have talked about being session players. CS is a bit different however, as although he has made a living from sessions as a guitarist he has his own voice and I'd harp back to In Your Mind. He was the main man on that album period.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:48 pm 
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Posts: 1363
Roger wrote:
wrighta wrote:
If the musicians Ferry uses now are that good maybe he should let them be more interpretive instead of playing note perfect singles edits of Roxy songs at shows. Spedding does to an extent but I'm sure Jorja and whichever other guitarists could be allowed a little latitude in arrangements.


And that is one of the major differences between Roxy Music and Bryan Ferry. BF uses session musicians. They are paid to do a job as instructed. They may not even like the music that they are playing. Over the years both Chris Spedding and Herbie flowers have talked about being session players. CS is a bit different however, as although he has made a living from sessions as a guitarist he has his own voice and I'd harp back to In Your Mind. He was the main man on that album period.


Cher Roger & Wrighta,

W2 is sure they love the music but that aside Roger must be wanting more of the creative interpretations displayed by Colin Good on everything from his intro to ASFE to the arrangements for all the Roxy songs on the ATGB set list.

Not to mention the phenomenal interpretations of those Roxy/Ferry classics on ‘TJA” & ‘Bittersweet ‘.

Or Tom Vantisphout’s blistering guitar solo on 2019’s ‘Boys & Girls’.

Au contraire, Windswept thinks our hero soaks up his band’s creativity but, of course, at the end of the day, he decides. As he did in the beginning, does now and always will do !

Because Roxy is Ferry & Ferry is Roxy - Viva !

Salutations a tous et bon unlock.

Windswept.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:02 am 
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Chers amis!

To the great posts by John and le grand W2 there is nothing more to say than Amen!

Even though I don´t agree with Miniluv always, his "we all know who was head chef, but there was a lot happening in that particular kitchen" is genial.

Alors, maintenant la grande question; will there be shows in the summer?

Salutations à tous!


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy is Ferry?? - Ferry is Roxy ???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:48 pm 
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I am a big BF fan, and I rate his early solo albums very highly. His offerings from 1985 onwards though have all disappointed me though; each album has certainly had high points but I’ve always found the overall impression too ‘samey’.

With Roxy Music albums though they never sounded ‘samey’ and the highpoints were so many. How many ‘dud’ Roxy tracks are there? Two, three, four? And that’s across eight albums.

I remember the 1985 BBC interview that BF did and he was asked if the Boys and Girls album could have been a Roxy album...and one of the reasons he gave was that he didn’t want the albums to all sound the same. Staggeringly ironic with the benefit of hindsight!

Very obviously Manzanera, Mackay and Thompson had a powerful effect in the studio. Sure, I can’t I imagine them wanting to contribute to Dylanesque or As Time Goes By anymore than BF would have any useful contributions to make to Resolving Contradictions or 6PM, Corronchos or the Metaphors album.

To say that Roxy = Ferry and Ferry = Roxy is so baffling and bewildering that I wonder if some people just hear rather than listen.

On a tangent I’ve played saxophone with several Roxy tribute bands which means I’ve performed with multiple tributes to BF, PM, PT not to mention the keyboard and bass guitarists, and I can tell you even the difference between tribute musicians is staggering, and that most of them are at least the equal of the musicians that BF currently chooses to go on stage with: but all the finest tribute band musicians hold PM, AM and PT, EJ, JG and AS in the highest of regards. I have also found myself on stage with musicians who unfortunately didn’t hold the originals in high enough regard and the musical results were very disappointing to put it mildly.


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